Episode 505: Daniel Stenberg on 25 years with cURL : Software program Engineering Radio

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Gavin Henry 00:00:17 Welcome to Software program Engineering Radio. I’m your host, Gavin Henry, and at the moment my visitor is Daniel Stenberg. Daniel is a founder and lead developer of cURL and Libcurl, an web protocol geek, an open supply particular person, and a developer. He’s labored on HTTP implementations for over 25 years, has been lively within the IETF for over a decade and labored on that HTTP stack and Firefox for a number of years. He at present works at wolfSSL. Robert, welcome to Software program Engineering Radio. Is there something I missed in your bio that you just’d like so as to add?

Daniel Stenberg 00:00:50 Thanks and good to be right here. No I believe that’s type of covers the fundamentals, however presumably I may add I’ve completed numerous different Open Supply stuff as effectively, however type of cURL is my child. That’s my major focus.

Gavin Henry 00:01:03 Glorious. This certain goes to be fairly completely different for me and for the podcast basically. We’re going to be speaking concerning the cURL challenge, historical past, struggle tales, a great deal of various things so it’s going to be actually thrilling. We’re going to have a chat about 5 – 6 subjects associated to the cURL challenge for round 10 minutes every. Let’s begin. Daniel, please take us by way of the 25-year journey, if 25 years is appropriate, you may deliver me up on that, of cURL and 10 minutes or so, or do your finest. Go.

Daniel Stenberg 00:01:38 Nicely, 25 years, it’s. If we depend the tasks I did earlier than I renamed it cURL. So mainly my journey with cURL began type of within the mid-90s, I work on one other Open Supply challenge with a good friend, which was, it was an IRC bot. We name it a Dancer on the time. It doesn’t actually matter, however in 1996 or so within the autumn there, I found out that I wished to supply a forex translation or trade service for the bot for IRC customers. So I began to go searching on how to try this. And I noticed that, after all, if you wish to do a forex trade, we want the forex charges type of moderately up to date from time to time. I wanted slightly device to obtain forex the charges utilizing HTTP, as a result of I discovered websites that hosted forex charges on HTTP.

Daniel Stenberg 00:02:28 So I regarded round and I discovered slightly device known as HTTP GET that might do the job for me. And so, I began working with that device to do my forex trade factor, after which I fairly instantly discovered some points with that device. So I corrected these and I despatched patches again to the creator who accepted it, after which it launched for what releases for that device HTTP GET. That first HTTP GET model I discovered and used was launched in November, 1996. And I believe Rafael, the creator that too, obtained tired of me fairly shortly as a result of I saved sending him patches for doing extra issues. So I turned the maintainer of that device inside weeks, truly I believe. I don’t bear in mind precisely the timing there, however I used to be the maintainer of that device inside a couple of releases. I believe I did my first launch of that device in the long run of 1996.

Daniel Stenberg 00:03:27 So that’s 25 years slightly bit greater than that. So, I labored on that device HTTP GET for some time, till I noticed I wished to increase my forex trade service with extra charges. And I discovered one other website that hosted forex charges on Gopher. So yay. I would like extra forex charges. I simply have to make my device help Gopher as effectively in order that I may obtain Gopher too. HTTP and Gopher. So, I added Go for help to HTTP GET, after which HTTP GET turned a fairly dangerous title as a result of it didn’t solely do HTTP. So it did HTTP and Gopher. I simply modified the title to URL GET as an alternative as a result of it will get URLs. After which by that point, the device would additionally work on URLs. That was one of many early modifications I participated to make within the device.

Daniel Stenberg 00:04:18 After which we saved it because the URL GET for some time; we launched model 2 and model 3 and known as it URL GET throughout 1997. After which I additionally discovered, I don’t bear in mind precisely why, I believe I discovered one other website as effectively, that supplied forex charges over FTP. So, I added FTP help. So now it may obtain knowledge from FTP, Gopher and FTP. And within the early 1998, I began so as to add help for FTP uploads as effectively. After which once more, I noticed that whereas calling it URL GET, it doesn’t mirror the character of the instruments since now it doesn’t solely do GETs anymore. It will do places or uploads as effectively. I wished to rename it once more. So, I renamed it to cURL and we launched the primary cURL model in March 1998. And I saved the model numbering from the earlier device. So, URL GET model three turned cURL model 4.0 there in March 1998. Then it may obtain from three protocols, add to 1 protocol.

Gavin Henry 00:05:30 The does the C in cURL for C programming language?

Daniel Stenberg 00:05:34 No, I truly wished to have a reputation and I’ve thought it will be enjoyable with the title that has a URL in it as a result of it really works on URLs. So, I figured I wished brief perhaps pronounceable title distinctive type. So perhaps C, could possibly be for consumer. I figured consumer for URLs and C may additionally work as a type of when you pronounce it, SEE the URL as a type of extra of a pun-like factor. So, I figured why not? And I simply need the first purpose was to have a brief, brief phrase in order that you could possibly kind it simply in command strains. So, I went with cURL. I didn’t actually spend numerous time with the title. It was simply, yeah, let’s go along with cURL and I believe it’s a fairly good title. So, at the moment, then in 1998, by that point it began in 1996, it was barely lower than 300 strains of code within the first device.

Daniel Stenberg 00:06:31 I don’t have the whole early historical past preserved. So I’ve type of restored a few of it, however the time I did the primary cURL launch, it was about 2,400 strains of code. And I believe it had 25 command line choices or so. And that was solely a command line device then. And we began engaged on that, or I saved on engaged on that. After which we obtained folks coaching out, submitting patches, and lengthening it increasingly. And the primary main change from that time was in the summertime of 2000 — summer season right here in my a part of the world. I re-modeled the internals slightly bit and supplied a library. So, libcurl was born in 2000 in order that we may present an API and web switch capabilities, mainly, to others — different functions or programming languages and so forth — as a result of I thought of it from the start and I assumed it will be cool.

Daniel Stenberg 00:07:30 And at the moment I’ve type of made it occur. And after I did, one of many first that instantly adopted libcurl as a library was the PHP language, which I believe was lucky for us as a result of they actually had numerous customers. They nonetheless have numerous customers. They actually examined it. They actually obtained to submit numerous bugs, and so they had concepts methods to do it. So, we obtained it examined and it took off actually shortly from that time. Nicely, not like a rocket, but it surely type of steadily elevated poularity and other people began to make use of it. And from that time we simply saved on fixing bugs, including issues. We added extra protocols help over time. We added TLS help already earlier than we had the library so it supported HTTPS already again in, I consider 1999. And from that time on, we’ve simply saved on including help for issues: options and numerous completely different backends.

Daniel Stenberg 00:08:33 We fairly quickly determined to help a number of implementations for various protocols. So, for instance, we began with TLS help with the previous SS — I don’t even understand how they pronounce it, the precursor to open SSL: SSLE or no matter they pronounce it — after which we switched to open SSL, however fairly quickly we additionally began to help different TLS libraries like GNU TLS, NSS, and some of the others. And over time we’ve at all times labored on supporting numerous completely different TLS libraries and over time, then we even have added help for a number of completely different libraries for different issues like SSH or IDN and title resolving and stuff like that. So, we had that type of infrastructure thought from early on to just about enable the consumer who’s constructing cURL to resolve what sort of third-party libraries they need to use once they construct cURL.

Gavin Henry 00:09:28 Thanks. Yeah. I’ve seen the choices once you go to put in libcurl or cURL; it provides you completely different variations of TLS libraries when you’re putting in by way of Debian packet monitor or Ubuntu or one thing. Glorious. That’s little bit of historical past. Greatest you are able to do in 10 minutes. Had been you fairly an achieved C programmer earlier than you began in ‘96, simply earlier than I end off this part, transfer us on?

Daniel Stenberg 00:09:54 Sure, I had been working — I imply, I’m a software program developer since, after all, since earlier than that. I had been working professionally with C programming for a number of years earlier than that, so I used to be fairly comfy with writing packages in C, sure.

Gavin Henry 00:10:09 Glorious. So now we’ve had that good historical past lesson. Are you able to consider a few issues for the subsequent 10 minutes that you just realized over that point that shocked you, or may shock others, in these 25 years?

Daniel Stenberg 00:10:25 I’m undecided I’ve realized a lot type of huge surprises. I believe I realized all these issues that most individuals would study doing one thing like this for a very long time. For instance, simply studying methods to write one thing that’s truly maintainable over time. For instance, clear code, feedback within the code, explaining issues to my future self, and stuff like that. And the worth of doing take a look at circumstances, and documenting issues, and simply having wise hygiene within the challenge, nothing of that’s stunning or unusual in any approach, but it surely’s once you work in one thing for a very long time, I believe extra of these issues truly change into essential since you get to type of uncover issues about your individual code and pondering down the street, as a result of you need to, once you dwell with it for such a very long time.

Gavin Henry 00:11:22 Possibly what a few protocol that you just carried out that took for much longer than you ever anticipated and that shocked you?

Daniel Stenberg 00:11:29 Oh yeah however I believe basically, I imply, HTTP is my major protocol. I believe that’s the protocol cURL is most recognized for, most used for, and that one I spent most time on. And I believe HTTP is a type of protocols that, yeah, it appears so easy. I bear in mind after I began engaged on HTTP, it appeared so easy to implement you realize: simply textual content and simply kind GET and it’ll GET that. And over time you actually notice that HTTP — sure, it appears really easy on the skin and on the floor, once you see that textual content. And naturally, through the years, within the latest 10 years, we’ve switched away from the text-based as effectively, but it surely was by no means a straightforward protocol and it’s getting increasingly difficult over time. Implementing one thing in HTTP at the moment, it’s actually difficult — specifically, if you wish to help a number of variations. So yeah, I believe mainly all protocols which can be well-used have turned out to be far more difficult in actual life and in the actual world than I, for certain, type of foresee from the start. And I imply, none of them are ever completed, proper? As a result of we hold getting bug experiences at the moment on stuff we wrote and carried out many years in the past. Issues are by no means completed. It’s doing issues. Web protocols, networking throughout the web is difficult.

Gavin Henry 00:12:52 And have you ever been shocked on protocols which have come and gone or libraries that you just use or belongings you’ve carried out which have outlasted, how lengthy you assume you’d have to help them otherwise you’ve needed to drop stuff over that point?

Daniel Stenberg 00:13:06 My major view of issues is that I don’t actually foresee, I don’t make any projections or, or attempt to inform how the world will look sooner or later. I’m taking a look at the place we’re proper now. And I’m attempting to adapt to that and perhaps the place we’re going this yr or this a couple of months forward. I by no means tried to truly inform what we’ll do within the subsequent 2, 5, 10 years at that, as a result of I discover it unimaginable to try this. However certain basically, issues stick round for much longer than you ever assume when it reveals up. So after all, for instance, introducing new protocol model, one thing we all know that the previous protocol variations, they may stick round for a really, very very long time, even when one thing new, higher, shinier comes alongside. And in cURL we have now this idea that we don’t modify inside break API.

Daniel Stenberg 00:13:57 So API, we stick round, we help every part we supplied previously as effectively. I’m undecided I’m shocked that it’s extra of how the world works. And naturally, it’s actually onerous to say, particularly once you use numerous third occasion libraries, it’s onerous to say, certain, we will add help for a brand new third occasion library at the moment, however we will’t inform how that third-party library will likely be maintained, survive or act tomorrow, proper? Or in two years or 5 years or 12 years, who is aware of the place they’re going. So through the years, after all, we realized that some, for instance, TLS libraries that we added help for previously, they principally perhaps died through the years after which we ultimately rip out help for that individual library or subsystem or stuff like that.

Gavin Henry 00:14:44 And the notorious query, I’m certain folks at all times ask us, are you content of the selection of the C program in languages or language for cURL and libcurl?

Daniel Stenberg 00:14:55 Basically I’d say that I’m very completely satisfied and that’s primarily based on a number of issues actually. As a result of to begin with we began, as I discussed earlier than, we began this within the nineties and within the nineties making a conveyable library or transportable device transportable something, there was no actual alternative apart from C. I imply, C++ may presumably be in a alternative, however not even C++ had a steady ABI again within the day. You couldn’t actually do any transportable libraries again then with C++, and I’ve by no means been a C++ fan. So I keep away from C++. So sure, I’m proud of C and a C has made it attainable to essentially make cURL and Libcurl deportable accessible all over the place library that it’s, it’s C that’s the reason why it’s used and can be utilized in so many, many alternative locations, working methods, CPU, architectures, and every part. I’d say it isn’t till very latest years that there even have began to look viable alternate options that might have been used, however they can be utilized now. They may not be used 20 years in the past. One of many advantages, one of many issues with cURL is that we have now the age, we have now the maturity we have now been round for therefore lengthy. So it has had the time to mature and stabilize and every part. And that’s very huge factor too.

Gavin Henry 00:16:19 Yeah. It’s not one thing that you just simply need to begin once more and a brand new language that’s come up.

Daniel Stenberg 00:16:23 No, precisely. As a result of no matter you do, it takes a very very long time to change into a very steady and strong factor to do like this. And I believe that’s one of many major advantages you’ve once you go along with cURL, you need to get all this battle confirmed time and have been formed by nature for therefore lengthy. And it’s, that’s onerous to copy or, I imply, you may replicate it. It’ll simply take a very long time.

Gavin Henry 00:16:48 Nicely, that brings us properly onto the subsequent part, which I’ve known as key occasions within the timeline. So, I actually just like the historical past and timeline doc that you’ve on GitHub and what I noticed on the mail record, it’s very full. May you decide two or three of your favourite issues from the timeline filed? You shared, I believe it was December or final month, or perhaps speak about belongings you want you could possibly delete on that record.

Daniel Stenberg 00:17:17 Nicely, there’s a lot,

Gavin Henry 00:17:19 I’ve obtained a few my record then you may agree or disagree. So, I’m pondering when cURL was on Mars, when Apple included at macOS, your favourite protocol, when the consumer base reaches a specific amount, the variety of bugs, once you obtained your first CVE safety factor, any of these?

Daniel Stenberg 00:17:39 Yeah, there was occasion. So after all, at first, when cURL began, after all as something that’s began as a small challenge, when folks prefer it, begin utilizing and adopted in several environment, these are key occasions. And people have been actually enjoyable to mark after all. When Apple included it in macOS in 2001, in September 2001, that was a very a key occasion for me as a result of it’s so, that was one of many first non-Linux working methods that truly adopted cURL as a typical device of their working methods. In order that marked one thing type of a notch, an indication of success. So, I’ve that marked, and I assumed that was actually nice second in time. And naturally as you talked about, it was confirmed for use within the Mars helicopter mission in 2021. And that was a very enjoyable second.

Daniel Stenberg 00:18:31 In fact, it actually wonderful ego increase. And one of many issues we’ve talked forwards and backwards within the cURL challenge for a very long time is to get any sort of affirmation that cURL has been utilized in house? As a result of we’ve had that individuals have talked about that previously that it’d’ve been used on the ISS and stuff like that. However I’ve by no means had it confirmed from anybody or had any proof. After which lastly, after we obtained the proof that they really used it within the Mars mission, that was such a cool second to say that, sure, lastly, yet one more planet than simply earth.

Gavin Henry 00:19:04 So, is that in one thing that was doing requests, however then an working system on Mars or coming again to the bottom?

Daniel Stenberg 00:19:11 They gained’t inform. So, it’s actually unimaginable to say. I don’t know. They’ve simply stated that they’ve used it within the helicopter mission.

Gavin Henry 00:19:19 I ponder what the latency is.

Daniel Stenberg 00:19:22 Yeah, I think about it might probably’t actually be completed from Mars to earth utilizing cURL. I’d think about it have to be one thing shorter distance, however I actually couldn’t inform. They usually gained’t inform so we will simply speculate on no matter it’s. For me after all, one key second in time is after I obtained the Polhem Award prize in Sweden in 2017. I truly obtained a gold medal from, which is an engineering award right here in Sweden. It’s actually an previous one, its over 100 years previous, type of handed out to engineers in Sweden who’ve type of achieved one thing, blah blah. However it was second in time for me. And I obtained that award handed over to me by the Swedish king on the nice gala dinner right here in Stockholm. That was superior.

Gavin Henry 00:20:07 Wow, congratulations. And the consumer base figures or bugs or safety points or was there some extent on that timeline the place you thought, what have I created?

Daniel Stenberg 00:20:19 There haven’t been some occasions when folks have stated one thing which have made me notice that, wow, the variety of customers is a very excessive quantity now. I bear in mind counting in some unspecified time in the future in time and I noticed it could be a number of hundred million installations now. That’s loopy! And these days we depend someplace perhaps greater than 10 billion installations. So that you get slightly to the numbers as a result of there’s so immensely huge now it’s, it’s onerous to even imagined. However after all, I bear in mind stuff like after I realized that it was utilized in for instance, wow, it’s put in in most Android installations. And after I additionally realized, and it’s utilized by default iOS, then I additionally notice that, wow, it’s utilized in various locations. And I’ve these enjoyable e mail interactions after I obtained that e mail from, from a girl, I believe this was in 2016 or so I obtained an e mail from the girl who, effectively, she was confused, however she wished my assist to repair her Instagram account as a result of apparently I do know the Instagram folks as a result of she discovered my title in Instagram. And that was one of many moments after I realized, wow, they’re utilizing my code within the Instagram app on iOS as effectively. These specific moments could possibly be slightly little bit of eye opening that it’s utilized in numerous these huge quantity apps.

Gavin Henry 00:21:43 Yeah. It’s sort of thoughts blowing, isn’t it? Once you simply take into consideration every part, not doc. So yeah. I observed that you just hold observe of the safety releases as effectively. Are they various things or is that programming patterns that hold showing, or how would you classify these forms of issues?

Daniel Stenberg 00:22:01 I attempted to maintain very shut observe of precisely all the safety issues that we have now had reported on cURL. And we have now this bag certain the place we reward the safety researchers who file or submit points which can be confirmed to be safety issues. After which I attempt to make it a very good effort. I pleasure myself to truly go into the main points after which analysis it precisely after we insert the issue after we repair it and take a look at to determine precisely the way it occurred and how one can discover that and attempt to doc all of that. And a part of the rationale for doing that, apart from then later, having the ability to do enjoyable graphs and when bugs have been inserted or mounted, is that can also be a great way to attempt to study one thing from the issue. It was inserted at this level, that is the error, we mounted it like this, however what may we have now completed or what ought to we do now in order that we don’t do that similar sort of what even the, precisely the identical mistake as soon as extra? That’s actually onerous as a result of it’s like a standard bug, proper?

Daniel Stenberg 00:23:05 When you learn it and upon getting that report, you may oh, you notice that, sure, that’s a foolish mistake. Why did we ever do it like that? In fact, it’s silly, but it surely wasn’t silly. Or a minimum of we didn’t notice the stupidity on the time after we inserted it. So, what do you study from that? So, it’s sometimes very onerous to truly not view it as a one-off mistake and type of everybody makes errors. We will’t repair that. However then we additionally strive, I’ve tried to do sure issues within the code, like avoiding sure types of programming patterns. For instance, one of many issues I noticed truly, that we had a number of safety issues that have been the results of foolish integer overflows and reallocs or mallocs primarily based on that potential into your overflow. And I’ve truly completed two issues within the challenge to scale back the likeliness of that ever occurring once more; one of many issues is that we have now these days a just about common restrict on string lengths of string knowledge inputs you may ship to libcurl.

Daniel Stenberg 00:24:13 Which limits string dimension to, I believe it’s eight megabytes, which is a ridiculously excessive restrict, but it surely avoids the possibility that somebody can put within the string that’s subsequent to 2 gigabytes on a 32-bit structure, for instance, or stuff like that. And we even have launched a brand new type of inside API and buffer system to attempt to make it cut back the variety of reallocs completed throughout the C code. As a result of I noticed that we had a number of of these safety issues in shut affiliation to reallocs and reallocs to rising buffers, rising reminiscence buffers. I’m attempting to keep away from stuff like that. So hopefully keep away from a number of the errors we’ve completed previously. Different issues we’re doing that we lately or we began in late 2020. I now labored with the ISRG who has sponsored a challenge to help changing the inbuilt HTTP again and the HTTP coding, however not all of it, however a part of it with an HTTP library written in Rust known as Hyper. That after all, one other option to probably deal with or keep away from future errors, a minimum of see errors by ensuring that we use much less C and extra different languages than C.

Gavin Henry 00:25:40 That’s level to maneuver on to the subsequent part. So struggle tales, I’m calling this. I’d such as you to now speak about a number of the onerous bugs you squashed or different memorable tales throughout the challenge life if that’s okay? What stands out for you and makes you assume if I did that, I can do something? Or we may drill into a few of these safety points a bit extra as a result of I just like the sound of what you simply defined, what you’re doing with that HTTP library layer. So yeah, if I did that, I can do something. Is there something that comes up?

Daniel Stenberg 00:26:11 Not likely or reasonably there’s a lot of that I believe. Bagging smart I believe doing issues, there are such a lot of layers of code I believe. In cURL itself there’s numerous layers and other people, functions, and there are languages. And I believe basically, we have now issues like languages doing bindings, doing libcurl, who’s doing issues. After which somebody writes an software in that language utilizing the binding utilizing libcurl was doing TLS, doing a protocol the place one thing is fallacious once you’re utilizing a third-party library. So, I determine generally it’s actually, actually obscure, or simply work out the place the issue could be, or there’s so many layers, so many alternative duties, so many alternative angles it could possibly be. So, I believe generally we’d actually dig round for a really very long time and numerous code to determine the place it’s.

Daniel Stenberg 00:27:11 So I believe it’s widespread sample. One among my favourite ones. I believe I’ve a quote someplace when Fb reported an issue with cURL Fb, I believe they nonetheless use, they’ve a PHP model. Plenty of Fb is written in, in order that they use libcurl from PHP. And whereas they skilled some sort of lag that took, I don’t bear in mind precisely. I believe it was some delay with some milliseconds in some sort of request. And I obtained it. I’ve saved their response quote as a result of the particular person I labored with or communicated with then despatched me an e mail and stated, I examined your patch in manufacturing. And it really works. And I figured that was enjoyable simply because testing my patch in manufacturing on Fb that’s appeared prefer it was a couple of years in the past, no matter was nonetheless, tons of of tons of of hundreds of thousands of customers. And that was enjoyable. One other enjoyable little bug. I do not forget that type of stands out amongst different bug fixes is that I used to be contacted by an organization in Germany who was doing software program for some automobile firm and the one who contacted me stated that, “we have now 8 million automobiles ready for a firmware improve right here, however we will’t ship that as a result of cURL is crashing.”

Daniel Stenberg 00:28:36 And that was again within the day after I didn’t even work on cURL. So I used to be simply, you realize what okay, thanks for telling me that. However you realize cURL is a spare time challenge right here, so I don’t know what you anticipate me to do right here. His subsequent then follow-up query was, “Are you able to fly down right here tomorrow and assist us repair this?” I attempted to clarify to him, no, you realize I’ve this full-time work. And I’m anticipated to ship one thing this week and I can’t simply take off in the course of per week to go to Germany to repair your factor. I managed to discover a good friend who may fly down there and I may assist them from distant. So, we mounted it inside a day or two. In order that was enjoyable. However yeah, there’s been a couple of of these adventurous bug fixes through the years.

Gavin Henry 00:29:18 Yeah. What was the one the opposite day I noticed, perhaps it was on Twitter; I believe it was to do with the Log4j exploit, wasn’t it?

Daniel Stenberg 00:29:27 That’s the largest story. So, since cURL, I don’t know precisely why, however we modified the MIT license barely after we adopted the MIT license again in 2001; I believe we switched cURL to MIT license. So it’s barely modified from the MIT language; it’s just some phrases that aren’t the identical. It’s mainly MIT. However anyway, in that license file, this has copyright blah, blah, blah, Daniel Stenberg, blah, blah and my e mail deal with. And that individual license file is normally included in several working methods, or merchandise or units, and about screens, on numerous locations, partly as a result of it’s not an MIT straight off. So it’s normally acknowledged because the cURL license and different common. So, when folks bundle numerous licenses, it’s nonetheless stands out as a result of it’s not among the many common MIT ones, it’s separate, its present one.

Daniel Stenberg 00:30:22 And it additionally normally then finally ends up as one of many few licenses that truly has a private e mail deal with in them. When folks ship merchandise or units and stuff, and so they put collectively a bunch of licenses, tons of of licenses isn’t that unusual, folks ultimately, or some folks ultimately discover my title and e mail in there. They usually e mail me about no matter downside they’ve that’s related that they’ve with their machine or device or automobile or printer or something. Laptop video games is fairly widespread, too. So, folks have issues with issues they appear round. And normally, I assume they’re truly fairly upset with one thing and they’re frantically trying to find somebody to contact. I assume in lots of circumstances, they already tried to contact 22 completely different folks. After which lastly they discover my e mail someplace in there. After which I’m going to e mail this man and he’s going to assist me with my problem, regardless of the problem is.

Daniel Stenberg 00:31:22 So I get numerous enjoyable emails from individuals who need assist with points with their software program, the place I normally don’t even know what they’re speaking about. And lately I obtained an e mail from a giant firm there. They really known as, I didn’t say that within the weblog put up, however they’re truly MetLife. MetLife is a very huge insurance coverage firm and so they’re, I believe their very own fortune 100. They usually emailed me numerous questions on methods to make it possible for their merchandise aren’t weak for the log4J vulnerability. They usually known as me a companion within the e mail, I assume they discovered my, my deal with in some sort of like that scanning numerous licenses of their merchandise or one thing. And naturally, for me it simply turned out actually complicated as a result of I don’t do any java wherever and I’ve by no means participated in any Java merchandise wherever.

Daniel Stenberg 00:32:17 So, after all, nothing that I ever wrote has any log4J in it. So, the query was principally confused, however then as I stated, I’m sort of used to getting these sorts of questions as a result of I believe nearly the identical day I obtained that log4j query, I obtained one other query from somebody who he was upset concerning the participant decisions he obtained when enjoying some soccer sport. I don’t even bear in mind the title of it, however that man requested me to assist him get higher gamers. After which he despatched me additionally a screenshot that confirmed my title within the license window of the pc sport.

Gavin Henry 00:32:54 You need to drill fairly deep to get the About web page in most apps. There’s some consumer interface failure if I’ve to go to the About web page and drill into licenses to search out the contact.

Daniel Stenberg 00:33:09 Not solely consumer interface failure, I believe there’s additionally a common suggestions buyer relation downside, but it surely was additionally had numerous automobile issues mailed to me and discovering my title in a automobile infotainment system that can also be it takes numerous will, endurance to search out it. It says one thing about how onerous it’s for normal folks to truly get in touch with somebody who did the software program for his or her units.

Gavin Henry 00:33:39 Simply earlier than we transfer on to the subsequent part, it sounded actually fascinating what you talked about about bringing Rust in as a library. Will that imply that you just’ve then obtained one other library to keep up that’s a part of the library, or how will that work?

Daniel Stenberg 00:33:56 Just about. Sure. Principally already, once you construct cURL at the moment or libcurly additionally, we use third-party libraries for sure issues that we don’t do ourselves — like dealing with TLS, SSH, completely different compressions, and stuff like that. We’re already leaning on different libraries for doing a part of the performance. So, once you construct libcurl and ship it together with your factor, you already use libcurl and various different libraries. When now we’re enabling or making it attainable to construct libcurl to make use of completely different Rust libraries, you’re solely perhaps including libraries or changing libraries so that you go along with the Rust ones as an alternative of different ones, however sure, you’re actually going so as to add the dependency and depend on different libraries in addition to on high of libcurl then.

Gavin Henry 00:34:49 So meaning the core HTTP performance will likely be moved away from C and into Rust as a separate library that approach?

Daniel Stenberg 00:34:57 Sure, however I’m doing it the identical approach as I do with all of the completely different TLS libraries just about. I nonetheless have a local implementation in C which you can exchange at construct time. So, you may go, you go both with a C resolution, the native one, otherwise you go along with the one in Hyper, the Rust one. So, at construct time, you choose which one to go, as a result of I’m a agency believer that I have to hold and preserve the C model as a result of as I type of talked about half an hour in the past, the C model is what makes cURL as transportable and as widespread in, in so many locations. So, I believe the C model goes to nonetheless stick round and be accessible and be utilized by – I’m undecided if “most” folks however lots of people going ahead as effectively. And we’ll see how the Rust options go. I imply, if they may change into widespread and used and so forth, I haven’t actually no approach of telling or no thought how they may fare going ahead. Hopefully they are going to be widespread and used, however I actually can’t inform if they are going to be.

Gavin Henry 00:36:00 Yeah, going over the timeline of what the historical past of cURL that’s a very long time. So, you’ll simply need to see, I suppose? Simply to shut off this part, you talked about the Rust bit to assist probably with some safety points, do numerous the safety points. Are they specific to programming elements and C or nothing to do with C or a mixture or one thing in how the protocols carried out that’s being missed?

Daniel Stenberg 00:36:27 I’ve tried to depend the variety of apparent errors which can be because of the programming language C and I believe it’s about half. I believe we’re going barely under half now, however someplace within the neighborhood of fifty% of the issues have been C errors. So, if we might think about that total cURL would have been written in a memory-safe language, perhaps we may have prevented 50% of them. However that stated, we additionally do issues in another way now. So, I’m not satisfied that we’re going to see 50% of them being C errors sooner or later, but it surely’s onerous to say.

Gavin Henry 00:37:04 Glorious. Thanks. So the subsequent part I’d like to speak about launch cycles and have request course of. Are you able to inform us about your launch cycle or characteristic request course of, for instance, how will we request options? How would you assess their suitability? And what made me consider this as the opposite day, you Tweeted about launch and the sense of aid that comes out of that. After which an hour later a bug report is available in and also you’re like “Arrrgh!”

Daniel Stenberg 00:37:34 Yeah. That’s a part of the common launch cycle. Sure. So, I’ve at all times been a, been a believer of the standard Open Supply mantra to launch early and launch typically. And these days folks do this much more since numerous software program nowadays already are server-based or cloud-based. However anyway, I’ve at all times tried to do numerous releases so that individuals can get the chance to have the newest code typically. So, if we repair something, they don’t have to attend round for a very long time till they, once more, the subsequent launch. So just about we began out early on to do very frequent releases. And after some time, perhaps a decade — I don’t bear in mind precisely after we switched to it — I believe it was like 15 years in the past or perhaps one thing like that. We switched to a totally time-based launch cycles. So, we just about simply set the clock and we stick with that cycle.

Daniel Stenberg 00:38:31 So, we do releases each eight weeks if nothing else occurs. So, we stick with that and we have now the primary half of that launch cycle open for merging options and doing modifications as we name them issues which can be truly probably including options of fixing issues. After which the second half of that launch cycle, we don’t settle for new modifications or options. We simply repair bugs. Then we do a launch after which we begin over, just about. I believe it has turned out to be fairly profitable as a result of it limits the pace by which we enable options. And it additionally, it makes us have a fairly very long time the place we solely work on bug fixes, which has turned out to be, I believe, fairly good as a result of it makes folks work loads on bug fixes. And I believe bug fixes are crucial issues we will do.

Daniel Stenberg 00:39:30 And we stick with this at any time when we discover one thing actually essential buggy throughout the launch cycle, we will make an exception and make one other launch with out eight weeks having type of being utilizing that as a cycle. And we do this from time to time after we discover some horrible bugs that we inserted, however the excellent case is eight weeks then launch. And normally we don’t even do emergency releases for safety fixes both as a result of they’re hardly ever that essential. So we normally bundle the safety fixes too, and embrace them within the launch at that individual launch cut-off date. And having eight weeks like on the clock, it makes it additionally very simple to plan every part as a result of we all know forward of time precisely the dates of all the long run releases, so long as we simply hold the discharge cycle. We all know after we go to the characteristic freeze, we all know when the discharge goes to occur, and so forth.

Daniel Stenberg 00:40:25 So it’s additionally a straightforward scheduling factor for me, I believe. And for the aid, I believe it’s after we work on one thing for eight weeks and we package deal every part and we put it collectively and add it to the location that we will clean out the change log and say, wow, we begin out on a clean sheet. Now every part is launched, every part is okay, this feels nice. That’s an superior feeling to simply ship it then. Ahhh, that’s it. I so get pleasure from that second when every part feels recent and new and everybody can improve to the newest and biggest; that second is superior. And as you stated, just about till somebody experiences a bug within the new model as effectively, or a brand new one or one thing dangerous, or anyway, it’s nonetheless an important feeling. And when we have now completed a brand new launch, we at all times do releases on Wednesdays.

Daniel Stenberg 00:41:19 So we do releases on Wednesdays after which one other one, eight weeks later. So when we have now completed a launch on a Wednesday, we wait till the next Monday to open the characteristic window once more, however just about to offer it a couple of days for anybody to report alarming bugs, as a result of if there’s an alarming bug, we don’t open the characteristic window and we work on emergency fixes that, and perhaps we do one other launch the subsequent week or so. But when we open the characteristic window once more, after that launch, we just about enable options to get merged. After which after all turns into the query, follows the query the place, what options will we merge when we have now the characteristic open? And it’s a little bit of a random factor. It’s just about what persons are offering in ballot requests which can be in good condition, mature and we agree that it’s good change.

Daniel Stenberg 00:42:14 And mixed with somebody who is definitely additionally capable of evaluation it and settle for it and work with them or third, to make it possible for it will get as much as snuff and being ok to merge. I normally myself have a couple of issues that I type of hold engaged on that I need to have a lot myself. So, I attempt to make it possible for I’ve pull requests prepared or in time as a result of I, after all additionally type of undergo the identical guidelines. I’m solely rising modifications when the characteristic window is open. That’s the one time I can merge options as effectively. So I, and naturally I’ve a barely simpler likelihood to get my stuff merged as a result of I do know higher than most, precisely methods to do it and methods to do every part appropriately and have it accepted by everybody. However in any other case it’s a dialogue. I normally enable anybody to supply no matter. And so long as you may inspire it, then talk about or argue on your sake and on your options, we talk about it and we work with it and we make it possible for we have now some sort of tough consensus after which go ahead with that.

Gavin Henry 00:43:26 Is it normally a case the place it help requests by way of get assist and so they’ve completed the characteristic and so they simply need to see or not it’s a part of the library or the cURL challenge, or did they request that you just guys may put into your schedule to do?

Daniel Stenberg 00:43:39 I believe we have now every part from each methods the place it was type of the place and every part there in between. Generally somebody reveals up with an enormous pull request that claims, I already completed this. We’ve used it for 2 years. Right here’s the pull request. And generally it’s simply folks nagging and say, why don’t you ever do that characteristic? We actually want it. Or one thing like that. And we have now every part there and in between. In fact, the very best factor is when somebody is definitely working with us, the very best factor is when folks don’t come there and submit the actually huge one. The very first thing we hear about it’s once they submit a couple of thousand strains of diffs, as a result of perhaps they did it in a approach we don’t fairly agree with. Possibly they did it in a approach we may have completed higher to reap the benefits of no matter.

Daniel Stenberg 00:44:28 So it’s higher to get that communication began early and see if we need to do that. What’s one of the simplest ways to do it after which work with the crew to get it completed. However I, wasn’t getting numerous good concepts from individuals who anybody who’s randomly utilizing cURL that claims, oh, I considered a good suggestion. Possibly it ought to do that. And naturally, good concepts must be supplied first earlier than we will do something like that. Proper. So, a good suggestion. It’s a good suggestion. Even when generally good thought can also be it’s slightly bit too simple to simply submit the nice thought, as a result of an thought is straightforward additionally, however perhaps they’re truly implementing the concept is just not at all times as simple. And along with that, I work on cURL full-time, I work for wolfSSL and this works as a result of I promote cURL help. So, somebody is paying me to assist them with use cURL or assist them do cURL appropriately of their functions and units. And a part of that, they will additionally pay me to assist them get options completed in cURL that they need. And naturally, that needs to be featured that I settle for and need into the challenge as effectively. So generally persons are truly paying, or I do work as a part of my paid contracts to land options as effectively.

Gavin Henry 00:45:49 And have you ever ever needed to say no, that doesn’t work? We don’t need your cash or?

Daniel Stenberg 00:45:54 Sure, however normally it doesn’t actually work. It’s hardly ever they are saying one thing and I say, I blankly say no. If they are saying I need this, and I believe it’s a nasty match for cURL, perhaps we don’t need to do precisely such as you requested. Possibly we may do that half in cURL and you must do this half in your software and we may work it by way of. So, it’s hardly ever a sure or no scenario. It’s extra of a grey space the place we will talk about precisely what ought to cURL do, what ought to your software do, what shouldn’t? So, it’s extra of a matter of discussing and debating. Oftentimes after I discuss to folks truly pay for this and it goes with whoever submits a pull request too proper? Generally folks ship me numerous issues that perhaps you have been asking cURL or libcurl to perform a little bit an excessive amount of. Possibly you must take away slightly bit and do this your self outdoors of cURL as an alternative. Or perhaps that is fully out of that course you shouldn’t do? However having labored with the challenge for therefore lengthy, we have now to make a very huge effort to restrict the variety of options and restrict the expansion of simply scaling all over the place. We will’t do this as a result of we have now to make it possible for we stick with the idea right here and never simply department off in each conceivable path.

Gavin Henry 00:47:13 So if a listener, need to an thought or an enchancment or one thing, how would you advocate they attain out?

Daniel Stenberg 00:47:20 Usually one of the simplest ways to debate something is on the mailing lists. We are actually Open Supply challenge. We use mailing lists. That’s one of the simplest ways to debate concepts. When you’re simply having an thought, if perhaps you’ve an embryo or a begin of some coach, truly you began to do one thing a change or studying an idea root than an idea, then perhaps you could possibly submit a pull request. Right here’s my first shot, check out this. Would this be acceptable to you? After which work with us, perhaps inside that pull request, this can be a good base. Possibly you must do it like this. As an alternative, perhaps this contradicts what we’re doing right here. We should always transform and do it like that. And so forth and simply be ready to work with us and perform a little bit and forwards and backwards, after which go ahead.

Daniel Stenberg 00:48:05 Normally I additionally tried to make it possible for when you actually need to see one thing occur, just be sure you additionally stick round for the follow-up dialogue as a result of don’t simply type of code at us and go away and are available again in two weeks. As a result of when you do, you’ll discover these questions or follow-up questions that have been filed half-hour after your pull request was made, after which it’s been useless silent for 2 weeks. When you actually need to make one thing occur, be there and just be sure you comply with code type and also you’ve made certain that every part works. You may have take a look at circumstances, you’ve your doc and new options and stuff like that, and simply make it possible for every part is in form. Then I’d say it, isn’t onerous to do something, to do modifications in cURL so long as you simply do issues appropriately and you’ve got some endurance and stick round.

Gavin Henry 00:48:55 Thanks. Nicely, that brings us into the final part of the present. An odd one, however in case you are beginning cURL once more at the moment, would you, we did do all the identical or hindsight’s an exquisite factor. And we should always perhaps indulge in some unspecified time in the future in our lives.

Daniel Stenberg 00:49:14 Yeah, I’d think about that if I hadn’t began it, I really feel like one thing I wouldn’t begin now, but when I hadn’t completed cURL or libcurl, another person would have completed it after which there would exist one thing else that might be much like cURL. I imply, as you described me from the start, I like web switch, web protocols. That’s type of what I’m intrigued by that I’m fascinated. I believe that’s enjoyable. And I, I imply, I take part in a couple of completely different Open-Supply tasks and I do another issues. And so other than cURL, for instance, the largest ones that I preserve as effectively is LibSSH2 and CA threat tasks. They do SSH and DNS stuff. In order that’s type of the world I’m all for web protocols, web transfers. So, if I hadn’t completed cURL, if I didn’t work a lot on cURL at the moment, I’d most likely type of nonetheless be nosing round and digging round in community associated libraries, community associated code. So perhaps not cURL particularly, however I’d have completed one thing internet-ish a minimum of.

Gavin Henry 00:50:19 And what recommendation are you able to give after your hard-earned expertise for different Open Supply challenge founders or those who want to assist with a challenge like cURL?

Daniel Stenberg 00:50:29 Nicely, for different maintainers, I don’t know. I don’t need to say the others ought to do what I haven’t completed, or I don’t assume I’ve completed something magically unusual or fantastic within the present challenge. I attempt to lead by instance. I attempt to hear in what different folks say. I attempt to make it possible for others can do as a lot as attainable in order that I don’t need to do issues, make it possible for we will widen the variety of builders and everybody can do issues individually and independently in order that we don’t introduce pointless bottlenecks within the challenge. I’m undecided I’ve succeeded in that, excellent. However that’s what I’m attempting to do. And we have been open for discussions and concepts and ideas and stuff like that. However I believe all of those is simply methods to, how any Open Supply maintainer would assume and think about Open Supply.

Daniel Stenberg 00:51:22 Engaged on Open Supply it’s numerous working with folks. In fact, you simply have to comprehend that there’s numerous completely different folks and it is advisable to perceive that persons are completely different, there’s many alternative cultures. You need to have a set sport and handle folks one way or the other. That’s actually onerous. And normally when I attempt to give recommendation to anybody who desires to take part in a challenge or take part and do one thing right here with us, I attempt to get folks to work with one thing that you just assume is enjoyable or that considerations you. Possibly you’ve an itch to scratch. Possibly you’ve a use case. You, you haven’t discovered fulfilled, otherwise you discovered a typo you need to repair or one thing that truly considerations you is as a result of it’s far more enjoyable to work on one thing that impacts you personally. So perhaps that little characteristic you’re lacking or that little factor that doesn’t work the best way you need it, get to that, to repair that, work on that. And that doesn’t actually matter. I imply, that’s actually not a cURL advice. That’s no matter you need to do in Open Supply. It’s significantly better when you begin with one thing that’s close to to your coronary heart. In any other case I’m not a man to offer recommendation. I really feel extra like a lottery winner. Do you’ve any recommendation on what lottery numbers to choose? I don’t, it was lucky for me. I’m undecided I’m the one to inform anybody to not repeat it.

Gavin Henry 00:52:47 Nicely, I believe we’ll settle for that, however I really feel you’re downplaying your position dramatically.

Daniel Stenberg 00:52:52 Nicely, perhaps, but it surely’s actually onerous for me to say what works for me and what doesn’t work for me. I’m attempting to run and be within the challenge the best way I’d have appreciated another person to do it. If I used to be a participant within the challenge, type of.

Gavin Henry 00:53:07 Yeah. That comes throughout. I imply, your private applies to emails and issues and how one can induct stuff is a very good instance. What are a number of the issues that almost all customers don’t find out about sustaining like a challenge, like cURL we’ve talked concerning the help request once more, or is there anything that goes on behind the scenes that isn’t regular for Open Supply tasks?

Daniel Stenberg 00:53:31 When you’re in an Open Supply maintainer for a smaller challenge, as a result of I believe cURL remains to be a smaller challenge, it could be effectively used and widespread and recognized, but it surely’s nonetheless a smaller challenge in that. I’m the one one engaged on it full time. So I believe what lots of people could not, when you’re an Open Supply maintainer this, however folks from the skin if persons are working with different issues, don’t notice how a lot different issues than engaged on code you need to do once you’re sustaining a challenge. Sustaining the servers, sustaining the mailing lists, doing releases, organising your scripts to replace issues, to do it’s the CI jobs, the every part else across the challenge that must be maintained for it to run easily. I believe lots of people are type of lacking that vast quantity of labor that you need to sustain in a challenge to simply hold every part afloat and going ahead easily.

Daniel Stenberg 00:54:31 So I believe it’s generally I spend numerous time on stuff like that simply sharpening issues across the challenge to make it possible for it goes ahead effectively, however that work isn’t seen in any respect as a result of when every part works you don’t see what work that went on to make it possible for nothing broke. The opposite day, for instance, in a weak second, I upgraded slightly element in my server and the server that runs all of the mailing lists. And in that little second of dangerous choices, I by accident upgraded my Python set up on the server to now not characteristic Python two. After which in a single blow, I simply broke numerous server infrastructure. In order that mailing lists and I run numerous mailing lists. All of them broke in a single second, type of, and that I needed to spend a number of days restoring Python to set up in order that the mailing record may work once more. And naturally, from the skin, it wasn’t actual. Okay. The breakage was presumably seen for a choose few who attempt to use the emailing record.

Gavin Henry 00:55:35 I did truly see that,

Daniel Stenberg 00:55:38 However it was nonetheless numerous work simply to deliver up every part again to look precisely prefer it did earlier than. And for me, I wager I spent 12 hours on that or perhaps extra, and it was a very annoying and hard time right here, however yeah from the skin, I didn’t do something on cURL. The whole lot was simply wanting the identical approach because it did earlier than

Gavin Henry 00:55:59 It wasn’t on a Friday night after a glass of wine, was it?

Daniel Stenberg 00:56:03 I believe it was truly worse, but it surely wasn’t Friday night, but it surely was nonetheless it wasn’t a type of choices I did with out even contemplating. After which afterwards, like, oh, what did I do? Oops, this was not good. Then I needed to endure by way of it.

Gavin Henry 00:56:20 Yeah. In order that’s an excellent instance. Proper? I’m going to shut off in a sec after which begin wrapping up. However I do know one of many statistics that you just like to speak about is various command line arguments that you are able to do. I believe it’s 750 or one thing. What are a number of the bizarre, weird, and new one’s that you just want to let anyone find out about?

Daniel Stenberg 00:56:40 I truly added the 245th the opposite day.

Gavin Henry 00:56:44 Oh, wow.

Daniel Stenberg 00:56:44 So we have now 245 and the newest one is what is just not in a launch but, but it surely’s sprint sprint Json.

Gavin Henry 00:56:52 Yeah. There’s been a little bit of noise about that one.

Daniel Stenberg 00:56:54 Yeah, precisely. There there’s been a bit optimistic and negatives about it, however this can be a quite simple one. I’ve added it to make it easier for folks to ship and obtain Json. And I believe lots of people have been fairly optimistic about it. In order that’ll be enjoyable. Now. I believe a few of my favourite ones that may not be that effectively used at all times one in all my absolute favourite ones is the sprint sprint libcurl, which is a command line choice that converts the command line to a libcurl code or generates a template code in C for the command line, you wrote. Principally when you write a command line utilizing cURL, did you do some sort of switch, add, obtain, no matter? And then you definitely say, ah, I need to convert this into an software as an alternative that use the libcurl. You run the identical command line and also you do sprint sprint Libcurl instance.C, after which it’ll generate that instance.C for you. With a skeleton code that makes use of slid code to try this very same.

Gavin Henry 00:57:56 I actually want I knew about that one. I simply did that the opposite day. It goes on the mailing record, however I’ll do this and examine issues out.

Daniel Stenberg 00:58:05 Yeah, I believe it’s actually cool. It’s not full, after all, as a result of it’s onerous to transform all of that into C code, precisely? However you get a fairly good begin to base your additional work on no matter you need to do once you need to do a libcurl software. And what’s good is that almost all bindings for libcurl are literally reasonably skinny. Most bindings for libcurl have the identical choices and stuff like that. You possibly can normally pretty simply even convert that C code into, for instance, PHP code or Python code or different binding steroids, as a result of they normally look pretty much like libcurl itself. That’s one in all my favorites. One other one which I wish to level out to folks is the sprint sprint resolve operate, which is a option to just about populate the DNS cache from the command line. So, you may add an IP deal with for a bunch title on the command line, which is a approach mainly what you need to do is when you, for instance, when you kind, cURL instance.com, however you’ve determined to host that instance.com in your native machine, for instance, on native host. And then you definitely get an issue with the names as a result of the certificates perhaps gained’t match and stuff like that. So, then you’ve an choice for cURL which you can say that on this invocation instance.com goes to make use of this specific IP deal with as an alternative.

Gavin Henry 00:59:33 That’s sensible. As a result of that’s usually considerably tough to do once you’re working CI jobs or modifying, et cetera, host and every part like that?

Daniel Stenberg 00:59:41 Precisely. Or once you have been experimenting otherwise you need to ship in a selected title on that individual IP deal with and stuff like that.

Gavin Henry 00:59:49 It was resolver?

Daniel Stenberg 00:59:50 Resolved.

Gavin Henry 00:59:51 Resolve, proper. Okay, wonderful. So I’m going to wrap up now. Clearly cURL’s a really highly effective device, with a robust historical past and international deployment base. If there was one factor {that a} software program engineer ought to bear in mind from our present, what would you prefer it to be?

Daniel Stenberg 01:00:08 I normally preserve that one of many major qualities that made cURL or has made cURL and libcurl succeed is simply persistence to simply carry on engaged on it till it truly works. And that’ll truly succeed. I typically get to listen to from individuals who check out issues to jot down the device and to say that effectively no person’s utilizing it. It doesn’t work and no person is succeeding. I normally then strive to return and see that it took me many, many, a few years with cURL and libcurl until we had various customers. So, I believe if one specific standards to truly succeed with one thing like that is to simply give it sufficient effort and time. So when you simply need to and simply carry on engaged on it, you may achieve the long term. It’s not essentially an instantaneous hit simply because it’s a good suggestion. You simply generally need to hold at it.

Gavin Henry 01:01:07 After which was there something that we missed that you just’d like to speak about or point out?

Daniel Stenberg 01:01:12 I may point out that we only in the near past surpassed 1000 commit authors within the challenge. So we have been greater than 1000 folks truly written code a lot into the challenge. Generally folks consider me as type of, yeah, I’m the lead developer, however we’re additionally large quantity of individuals truly contributed code to.

Gavin Henry 01:01:31 And what are their names?

Daniel Stenberg 01:01:34 Nicely, we have now the thanks record in GIT and that the thanks additionally consists of all contributors. Additionally individuals who have reported bugs and assist out in different methods. And that’s, I believe that’s approaching 2,600 names now. So fairly lots of people who’re serving to out on a regular basis.

Gavin Henry 01:01:51 That’s sensible. The place can folks discover out extra or get in contact?

Daniel Stenberg 01:01:55 The whole lot at present is after all on cURL.SE if you wish to learn up on cURL, we have now this ebook on every part.cURL.dev, which is my ebook efforts to doc URL and every part about me is on daniel.haXX.se. And naturally, I’m on Twitter as again there. And I tweet numerous cURL stuff none cease, numerous blabbing.

Gavin Henry 01:02:19 Daniel, thanks for approaching the present. It’s been an actual pleasure. That is Gavin Henry for Software program Engineering Radio. Thanks for listening.

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