Episode 540: Joe Nash on DevRel : Software program Engineering Radio


Joe Nash of Twillio’s TwilioQuest discusses the function of developer relations/advocate, which is a task at tech corporations in-between builders, advertising and marketing, gross sales, and HR. Host Felienne speaks with Nash in regards to the abilities individuals want in the event that they wish to change into developer relations, reminiscent of content material growth, programming, and public talking. Additionally they mentioned what the job typically seems to be like, and how one can hold your programming abilities up-to-date sufficient to stay related in your function.

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Felienne 00:00:16 Hiya everybody, my identify is Felienne Hermans for Software program Engineering Radio, and at present with me on the present we have now Joe Nash. Joe is a developer educator at Twillio the place he helps college students to study with TwillioQuest, Twillio’s academic recreation. Beforehand, he was a program supervisor for GitHub schooling and developer advocate at PayPal. Welcome to the present, Joe.

Joe Nash 00:00:37 Hello there. Thanks a lot for having me.

Felienne 00:00:39 The subject of at present’s present is developer relations, and that is after all a task out of your biography we all know that you’re acquainted with, however not everybody may really know what developer relation, what it even means. So, what does that imply? What relations do builders have with whom?

Joe Nash 00:00:58 Yeah, positive. So, I imply, this can be a little bit of a sophisticated reply, which fairly the easiest way to begin, however I suppose most easily put developer relations is enterprise perform, which helps corporations attain builders — whether or not these builders be prospects of the corporate, say in a developer-facing product or stakeholders; for instance, when you’ve got a developer platform like Slack, for instance, the place they need builders to construct apps. So, in each of these circumstances, individuals who do the developer relations function try to assist that firm attain and construct relationships with builders.

Felienne 00:01:27 And I feel there are two phrases right here which may play a task. Generally individuals name themselves developer advocate, but additionally, we hear the time period developer evangelist. Is that the identical factor?

Joe Nash 00:01:38 Sure. So, that is one other space the place the reply is sophisticated. Developer evangelist was sort of the unique title, and that meant somebody who would exit into software program communities on behalf of an organization and advocate to builders and discuss to builders and unfold the phrase of the product to builders. And over time there’s sort of been a development change to developer advocate and that’s largely truthfully in my opinion as a result of the phrase evangelist has some non secular connotations that not should not essentially applicable for each neighborhood. However there’s additionally sort of been — and Twillio is an instance of this — an thought that truly these are two completely different roles the place evangelists are extra about outward messaging and advocates extra about bringing builders’ considerations again into the corporate. So, some corporations do function evangelists and advocates as two separate roles. Different locations it’s simply sort of a development change the place they’ve wished to maintain up with the occasions and select a globally relevant phrase.

Felienne 00:02:32 So if we’re in a scenario the place we have now these two roles, is it an evangelist is extra pre-sales and possibly a developer advocate is extra serving to individuals to really use the product?

Joe Nash 00:02:42 Yeah, I’d say that’s fairly correct. Yeah. Evangelists are usually about consciousness. They are usually prime of the funnel. So, serving to builders perceive that this firm exists, and it has developer merchandise, and what they will do with the instruments. After which advocates are fairly often very built-in into the product suggestions life cycle. So, they’ll be out with builders guaranteeing that their suggestions will get integrated into future integrations of the product, ensuring the developer expertise is sweet. There’ll typically nonetheless be some — each roles could have an enormous schooling element. So, each roles will assist builders in implementing the corporate’s resolution. However sure, I feel that the place they play into the gross sales lifecycle is an excellent manner of trying on the distinction.

Felienne 00:03:20 So why does this function exist? What do corporations sometimes want developer advocates for?

Joe Nash 00:03:27 So largely the — I suppose the meme, the favored conception of why developer relations exist is that builders are sometimes considered laborious to market to. I don’t essentially agree with this, personally, however that’s the well-liked conception. The thought is that in case you are advertising and marketing to technical individuals the place ‘technical’ signifies that they’re into software program, they’re into software program growth, you want individuals who have some understanding of that area so as to communicate their language so as to talk successfully with them. And so, you find yourself with basically technical advertising and marketing. And so, that’s sort of the place developer relations is available in. Over time, developer relations has taken on plenty of different roles, and also you sort of typically see it basically performing because the glue for a corporation that should tackle builders the place developer relations will interface with each division that interfaces with these builders and act as sort of the technical spokesperson.

Joe Nash 00:04:19 So, developer relations could get entangled in advertising and marketing, they might get entangled in gross sales, they’ll get entangled in content material and in product, and the place they’re performing because the ‘developer’ throughout the firm. And so, it pops up in plenty of locations, plenty of completely different roles, and so the primary causes an organization will want developer relations is that if they’re pursuing builders as both a buyer or as a part of a platform play. So for those who’re promoting to builders, you want to have the ability to — typically promoting to builders or advertising and marketing to builders means empowering builders to construct on prime of your APIs, or your software program, your SDKs. And so meaning technical content material. And equally, in case you are doing a platform play, you need builders to construct on prime of your product, you want numerous you should encourage them to say that ‘hey, this can be a place you may construct what you are promoting. That is the place you may construct your app on prime of.’ And in order that additionally requires a developer within the seat.

Felienne 00:05:09 So the kind of corporations that can sometimes have such a task are corporations that enable builders to construct upon their platforms. So, they may have, as already stated, an API or an SDK. There’s a place for builders to work together with their tooling, and subsequently, you wish to assist them in doing that successfully and with pleasure.

Joe Nash 00:05:29 That’s right. Yeah, there may be some nuance there in that we’re more and more seeing corporations that concentrate on builders as a shopper even have developer relations. So, GitHub is sort of an attention-grabbing instance of this. GitHub is a product, clearly, builders use as a product. We come and put our code on GitHub, and that’s not likely a platform play, proper? That’s us utilizing it as a shopper, however then additionally they have an API they usually even have issues GitHub actions and a strategy to construct apps on GitHub. And so, GitHub developer relations sort of performs between each the place they’re encouraging builders to focus on GitHub as a platform for their very own purposes, however then additionally they’re simply evangelizing the usage of GitHub as a product with builders. So, you do sort of get each ends of that now. And there are sometimes a DevRel falls on the spectrum between are you a product or are you a platform, and what you want from a DevRel will depend on the place on that spectrum you fall.

Felienne 00:06:20 Yeah, attention-grabbing. So typically you may primarily be wanting builders to make use of your instruments even when they may not customise the instruments with APIs. One thing like GitHub or possibly additionally Slack could possibly be an instance of that or Discord the place you additionally need builders to be your prospects. So, you wish to be sure your product seems to be cool and has options that builders need, but additionally you wish to assist them in billing in your platform.

Joe Nash 00:06:46 Precisely. JetBrains is one other actually attention-grabbing instance of that, really.

Felienne 00:06:50 Let’s transfer on to what the job really seems to be like. So, I feel a lot of the viewers would know if you wish to be a programmer, or if you wish to be an architect, these are the abilities that you just might need. However how does that work for a developer relations particular person? What sort of abilities — are you want a programmer, are you want a salesman? How do you outline your self, and what are the abilities that you’d want if some individuals which are listening may take into account turning into such a task? What are the abilities you want for that?

Joe Nash 00:07:19 Certain. So, I feel it’s in all probability best to begin with the developer advocate, the developer evangelist function. That is the function I feel most individuals have skilled in DevRel. And while you’re these roles, numerous abilities — relying on the corporate — come into it, however typically stated there may be that facet of communication, being on the market in developer communities; it’s an enormous distinguished a part of these roles. So, public talking will typically be a part of that potential to not solely be assured and talk a message properly on stage however to have the ability to craft a story. So, to take your organization’s product and consider tales you may inform round that. And that doesn’t at all times essentially must be product-focused. A lot of developer advocates — for instance, I had a chat I used to do at PayPal, which was about some cool engineering that was occurring inside PayPal that was fully your orthogonal to make use of of the product for a developer.

Joe Nash 00:08:04 Nevertheless it was an attention-grabbing story and confirmed that we have been doing a little actually cool technical stuff, and in order that’s attention-grabbing to builders. So, the power to construct narratives and tells compelling tales is basically essential. Typically developer advocates might be concerned in content material creation of all types. So, historically that’s been weblog posts and social media content material. And so once more, with the ability to inform superb tales in a written format is basically helpful in with the ability to make it entertaining. However the academic content material piece is essential for weblog work. And over the course of the pandemic video work has taken a extra essential place as particularly stay streaming has taken on numerous significance versus the place we used to do numerous in particular person stuff. In order that’s develop advocacy. A lot of different roles relying on the scale and class of develop relations division will fall into DevRel so, know you’ve learn out program administration, it’s the title I’ve had prior to now. There’s more and more developer centered applications that get run by DevRel. Some departments incorporate documentation and different technical schooling roles, however I feel these are in all probability extra acquainted to numerous people. I feel the one that can in all probability be most novel is the developer advocate function. And so the power to notice, take your growth abilities and share these is primarily what you’re .

Felienne 00:09:16 What does a job appear to be day-to-day? It looks like it’s a really, very thrilling job the place you do many various issues: running a blog, going to conferences, doing stay streams. How does that work? How do you manage the work you do?

Joe Nash 00:09:30 There’s no avoiding it. It’s chaotic typically within the peak of my occasions and developer advocate, my each day has been outlined by the convention seasons. So, you get very used to for instance, Octobers and Novembers are doomed. That’s when all the large conferences are, you simply get used to dwelling out dwelling on a airplane. Once more, that’s modified in more moderen years. However yeah, it’s very pushed by the neighborhood and the neighborhood’s wants. I’d say it’s a really reactive function. You’ll typically be responding not solely to what your builders want and what the builders in your neighborhood want and what they’re doing with conferences and occasions, but additionally what’s popping out of your organization. So, developer advocates are very busy this time of yr as a result of plenty of massive developer dealing with corporations are likely to do their massive product convention on this time, proper?

Joe Nash 00:10:12 We’ve obtained GitHub Universe, Twillio Sign, all these sorts of issues. And, and that’s when the large bulletins come out. And in order that’s when the weblog posts and the talks must be accomplished. And so, it’s a very reactive function. One of many tensions I feel, and I think about we’ll discuss this, is maintaining your proficiency as a developer your self. That’s one thing that numerous developer advocates fear about truthfully. As a result of there isn’t essentially at all times time to take a seat down and churn out numerous code. You’ll typically be engaged on samples and demos, and bits and items for weblog posts. However when you find yourself on the content material manufacturing pipeline and touring a lot, it may be, may be laborious to seek out that point. And in order that’s one thing that you just’ll typically try to make for time for relying on the season. So earlier within the yr, it’s simpler to make time to take a seat down and work on an SDK and that sort of stuff, proper? Yeah. It’s chaos.

Felienne 00:10:56 Yeah, that sounds actually difficult. And the way have you learnt, particularly given all these completely different duties you have got, how have you learnt for those who’re doing properly, proper? For those who’re a developer and no less than there’s so metrics we have now so many customers, or we have now a lot site visitors or so many request shut or options provides. When are you doing properly? How have you learnt that?

Joe Nash 00:11:16 That is, once more, one other query that DevRel likes to ask itself on a regular basis, which any dev individuals listening to this can know is a selected sore level of thoughts. There’s plenty of methods of measuring DevRel, relying on what your product slash platform is, it may be somewhat bit simpler. So, for those who’re a developer advocate, there are all types of quote-unquote vainness metrics that you should use simply to get a tough thought of how issues are going each day. How many individuals have been in my discuss, how’s my views on my YouTube video going? That sort of factor. However finally, precise success goes to depend upon the instrumentation you have got across the precise product and the funnel for the product. For those who work on a, for those who’re a DevRel engaged on a product that has a free trial mechanism or a promo code-driven mechanism the place you may give, the place you may have attribution for a developer that indicators up attributable to one thing you’ve accomplished, that’s clearly a far much less aggravating scenario to be in.

Joe Nash 00:12:07 It’s a lot simpler to level to your outcomes. Sadly, that’s not the character for lots of merchandise. There’s some actually cool tooling out, and there’s some actually cool measurement on the market. I feel one I at all times quote is the Microsoft Azure staff have actually good monitoring on their documentation. And so, they really know at a really granular stage — or have identified prior to now, I don’t know if that is nonetheless true — have identified prior to now at a really granular stage, what number of signups to Microsoft Azure come from documentation written by their developer advocacy staff, proper? And so, they’ve that stage of element. And so yeah, the approaches range. One of many belongings you learn out my bio was the GitHub function and get pupil developer pack, that was sort of a dream function from a metric perspective as a result of we had a pupil centered product, it was a pupil low cost and that was the first quantity, proper? Every little thing we did funneled all the way down to that quantity. And so, what we have been at all times in search of was, hey, right here’s the mechanism by which we moved that quantity ahead. And so, all the things comes all the way down to this north star metric. Discovering that north star metric the place you go is sort of the defining problem of a developer relations function internally, I’d say.

Felienne 00:13:07 Yeah, that was going to be my subsequent query, proper? However that is additionally a query that issues for builders. They’re additionally, you may assume, are we counting the variety of customers, or are we counting the variety of customers that stick to us for multiple month? So, I perceive usually it’s actually laborious, however I do nonetheless wish to know from you, what’s the course of to outline the northern star? Is that this a factor you do, you do along with the board of the corporate, or with builders? How does that work, that technique of deciding this?

Joe Nash 00:13:37 Certain. Yeah. And it’s going to hopefully be a really collaborative course of in apply. It’s typically not, however once more, it comes all the way down to what’s the firm constructing and the way do builders issue into that gross sales cycle, proper? So, if you wish to discuss a platform firm — say you’re speaking a few Slack or a Discord, as we stated — the final word aim there may be that builders construct an utility on prime of that platform. That’s a choice that’s very pushed by the developer, proper? It could be an organization that’s constructing the appliance, however the option to implement towards Slack might be very pushed by a developer. And so, builders are essential in that gross sales cycle. And so, in that case you may discover that you could, that metrics variety of builders reached are barely extra impactful and highly effective as a result of the developer has an outsized affect on adoption in that case. In different circumstances, when you’ve got a extra enterprise-focused product, you may discover that the developer really has much less say within the adoption.

Joe Nash 00:14:35 So really instance, that is video video games. So, video video games actually technically intensive growth course of, however they’ve very lengthy growth cycles, and as soon as they’ve locked into expertise they will’t readily change that expertise. And there’s a time frame the place they want to decide on what they’re going to construct the following recreation on. And as soon as that’s accomplished, it’s a brief time frame. As soon as that’s accomplished, that’s accomplished. It’s not so helpful to market to builders in video video games as a result of they don’t have numerous affect on the expertise getting used. You may’t, your window of alternative to get to a developer and affect them could be very, very small. And so, in that case reaching builders or variety of builders reached isn’t an excellent helpful metric, proper? So actually — and that is I feel the place numerous corporations have their first hindrances with DevRel — is that they don’t typically ask or don’t typically analyze very intensely, like what’s the function builders really play in a possible adoption or go or no go on our merchandise.

Joe Nash 00:15:25 Developer relation could be very stylish. So, it’s very simple to say, hey, everybody has builders, everybody hires builders, however builders don’t have equal energy in each firm, proper? The online, I feel the online and APIs that trade, that a part of tech has actually popularized developer relations as a result of constructing web sites, builders do have numerous say in adoption simply typically talking, however that doesn’t essentially apply to all over the place the place you could be using developer relations. And so, in the case of really understanding how will we outline success? Actually the query is what’s the worth of a person developer coming to your platform? After which you have got, whether or not success is extra builders or deeper relationships with builders all comes from that, proper? If it’s a sluggish, if it’s excessive, if builders have numerous energy in adoption, going for a lot of builders and simply getting the phrase out as extensive as doable is a fairly viable technique. If you should attain a high-level particular person within the firm you may wish to set up shut relationships and work for extra CTOs or architects than particular person front-end devs. Proper? Does that make sense?

Felienne 00:16:27 Yeah. So, it’s very a lot tied additionally to what the mission of the corporate is, proper? As a result of certainly you may entice many builders, oh, I make this very enjoyable balloon to Slack or one thing however is that going to result in a paying buyer, or are you simply spending power of the advocates on hobbyists which are making enjoyable issues however should not essentially resulting in extra prospects? So, I think about that it’s additionally very, very tied to what what you are promoting mannequin is.

Joe Nash 00:16:54 Sure, precisely. Yeah. And I feel a very really fascinating instance of that is Spotify, so Spotify have an API platform; you should use the Spotify API, you are able to do a bunch cool stuff with it, however what are the companies really constructing on prime of Spotify as — you recognize, constructing their enterprise on prime of Spotify, its issues built-in good audio system and dashboards for vehicles and in these industries I imply, to start with, they’re adopting Spotify for causes which are fully orthoganal to the developer expertise. They must combine Spotify regardless, proper? So, whether or not a developer likes the API or not is irrelevant. The authorized scenario, the authorized and copyright environment of integrating a music supplier into these programs once more, additionally removes numerous energy from the developer making that alternative.

Joe Nash 00:17:45 After which {hardware} and automotive are each industries the place a developer doesn’t have numerous decision-making energy. In order that’s an important one the place I feel a very attention-grabbing instance of like Spotify investing in DevRel they usually have a public API and the DevRel people can go and get a bunch of builders constructing on it, however does it essentially allow extra individuals to construct with Spotify, proper? Ordoes it affect the kind of corporations which are constructing with Spotify? Most likely really not. Nonetheless factor for them to be doing. It’s nonetheless, DevRel can having public dealing with API can do wonders for all types of issues for a corporation, particularly hiring. If you’re seen to be a developer pleasant firm, it’s lots larger, lots simpler to rent builders. In order that’s by no means one other a part of it, however yeah, it’s a tough query.

Felienne 00:18:35 Yeah, that’s attention-grabbing, that perspective of hiring, this could be another excuse, proper? Why corporations have developer relationships — not essentially to point out that is the way you construct on a platform, or that is how cool our platform is, however extra to point out we’re an organization that cares about builders and subsequently come work for us, proper? Is that this additionally one thing that’s typically seen because the duty of DevRel, or is that this like, within the HR division and that is solely out of your scope sometimes?

Joe Nash 00:19:04 Yeah, once more, it may possibly range. It’s sufficient of like overlap with expertise is one other factor that some DevRel groups do — and a few DevRel groups are constructed round this precept. So, I simply talked about Spotify there and their API; Spotify have a developer-facing product known as Backstage, which is an inner instrument that they constructed for their very own utilization after which they began evangelizing outdoors in an analogous strategy to Fb and React, they usually’ve obtained a DevRel staff for Backstage. And that’s nothing to do with Spotify’s product. That’s purely, we’ve constructed a cool developer instrument; we expect it’s good, it’s good for the corporate, for builders to assume it’s good, so let’s assist advocate it. So, that’s a developer relations staff that has sort of been based with that concept that there’s, they’re in all probability largely a model positioning factor, proper?

Joe Nash 00:19:49 And you may arguably say the identical in some ways about any developer who works on one thing. Like React. React is just not associated to Fb’s enterprise as a social media firm, proper? It doesn’t get extra individuals to log into Fb and add photographs of their canines. However Fb wants numerous builders. React could be very, very fashionable and has had a big impact on the developer ecosystem. So being a developer advocate engaged on React, you’re primarily engaged on Fb, the model. And so, you’ll have developer relations groups the place that’s the core premise, that’s what you’re doing. And it’s fairly clear from the skin while you go to work on a staff like that, that’s, oh, I’m not engaged on the product that pays the payments. I’m engaged on a product that helps us construct the corporate that pays the payments. Proper?

Felienne 00:20:38 Think about individuals wish to change into a developer relations particular person. How do you try this? And possibly we are able to begin along with your path. Did you go from being a programmer to being an advocate? How is your course of, and the way is the everyday course of in as far as you recognize that?

Joe Nash 00:20:54 My path is basically bizarre and doubtless not typically relevant. My path is through hackathons, which isn’t itself unusual. So people who aren’t conscious, hackathon is sort of a programming journey marathons. So sometimes, you’ll spend a number of days in a room with a few hundred different individuals simply constructing cool stuff. There could also be prizes, there will not be. There’s community-driven hackathons, company-driven hackathons. I used to be very concerned in pupil hackathons once I was in college, but additionally used to go to some skilled hackathons, and a kind of was PayPal’s hackathon, which not exists, however it was known as Battle Hack. And Battle Hack was sort of a World Cup setup, in order that they’d maintain it in each metropolis after which they’d fly the winners out to their workplace in Silicon Valley the place you’d compete for some foolish prize cash.

Joe Nash 00:21:37 My staff gained in London and so we went to the finals. We have been certainly one of two pupil groups there, after which we obtained completely demolished. We had no probability of profitable by any means. However after that I stated to the PayPal developer relations staff, hey, that is the very best hackathon I’ve ever been to. I manage hackathons myself as a pupil, how do I be a part of this staff? And so, they opened an internship place for me, and I joined as an intern. And yeah, then after I graduated and I went on to begin doing a PhD in basically programming language design, as a result of I had this sense that being a developer was far more durable than it must be, and I wished to work on that. After which I used to be up there in distant Scotland engaged on this PhD and was sort of like, oh wait, I can receives a commission to assist builders as a substitute, I’m going to go be a part of PayPal full time.

Joe Nash 00:22:30 And so, my path was very, very bizarre. Sure. So not lots that’s relevant there, however typically talking, I’d say the commonalities there that I’d actually advocate is interfacing with developer communities. So, I feel certainly one of, and I don’t essentially assume this can be a broadly held perception, however I feel one of the essential issues about developer relations and why it exists, and why developer communities look they do, and why we go to all these conferences and this type of factor, is finally that software program engineering is a occupation with an uncommon diploma of lifelong studying, proper? Due to the tempo of expertise, software program engineers must replace their abilities and study new abilities at a tempo that’s in all probability not seen essentially in different industries and different roles. And we flip to neighborhood to assist us try this.

Joe Nash 00:23:23 The place else are you going to find out about all this new stuff? Nicely, we’ve obtained the specialists talking on the onstage at a convention, proper? You don’t get, you don’t essentially get hackathons for carpenters with tons of of individuals sitting in a room for twenty-four hours to discover ways to use a brand new chisel, proper? That’s one thing that’s pretty distinctive to software program engineering. And finally that’s sort of the, it’s a really distinctive half about being a software program engineer. And taking part in these communities I feel is basically essential for our development as software program engineers. But in addition supplies a very nice launching off level for a developer relations particular person. Go discover your native meetup. Go discover, go tune right into a stream for a product you’re desirous about, discover an Open-Supply developer and skim that weblog. Get to know builders round you, study new abilities and work out how one can contribute.

Joe Nash 00:24:10 And I feel that’s in all probability the very best path into developer relations. A lot of corporations hiring for early-stage developer advocates might be desirous about your technical proficiency. And your potential to speak that expertise and what different, what writing and what talking you’ve already accomplished, however finally they’re in search of individuals who perceive that expertise and perceive the neighborhood round that expertise who’s assured in speaking to others in that neighborhood and distributing a message by that neighborhood. So simply go hang around with different devs in your space is the simplest manner.

Felienne 00:24:45 Good. That’s nice recommendation for those that wish to possibly discover this path. However you hinted at this to start with of the episode already, like what’s the function of programming? and the way do you retain your talent in programming up-to-date? So let’s first begin with this primary query: How essential a part of your job is programming? Do you ever nonetheless program? Do you construct prototypes? Do you really develop the merchandise that you just work on?

Joe Nash 00:25:09 Yeah, so once more, this can range tremendous broadly relying on the skew of the DevRel staff, however typically talking for a developer advocate, developer evangelist, being technically proficient might be pretty essential as a result of it’s going to drive numerous the content material. Some developer advocates will write extra code as a part of their outreach efforts than others. So, some might need stay coding or demo-driven content material or talks. Some could get straight concerned in issues like the upkeep of SDKs or documentation. However there are positively roles inside developer relations departments to swimsuit sort of all ranges of technical proficiency, I’d say. So, as numerous developer relations groups are increasingly encompassing issues documentation and developer expertise. So, there’s various DevRel groups the place it’s really the developer relations staff that owns the SDKs or the developer-facing elements of the product as merchandise. And so they preserve these as merchandise.

Joe Nash 00:26:16 And so there might be engineers who’re centered on engineering inside developer relations, they usually’ll get to expertise a few of what makes developer relations distinctive when it comes to the positioning to the client and being in contact with builders and incorporating developer suggestions extra straight, however they’re nonetheless doing engineering. So typically I’d say understanding how a lot a task requires, a task will mean you can code or not mean you can code goes to come back all the way down to the job itemizing and asking some prudent questions within the interview course of. I’d say developer relations, if you will discover a task that’s on — in case you are eager to code extra, discovering a task the place the developer relations staff is concerned within the growth of SDKs or client- or developer-facing merchandise goes to be actually essential. However there’s additionally numerous enjoyable and pleasure in engaged on demos and stuff. I feel that’s, I positively, I stated it’s very uncommon that you just’ll get to actually plow into some scaled utility stage code, however with the ability to simply work on enjoyable merchandise and churn them out and discover narratives to — to seek out inspiring issues to construct in your firm’s merchandise could be very enjoyable.

Felienne 00:27:30 And that does result in the query, after all, of learn how to hold your abilities up to date as a result of your buyer finally is also a programmer. So, it’s a must to perceive what are the challenges of programmers at present, each usually in working with programming programs, but additionally particularly within the instrument that you just wish to market to builders. How do you retain that talent up-to-date? Particularly, you’re already referring to our area being a area by which there’s plenty of studying occurring. How do you handle that?

Joe Nash 00:27:58 Yeah, I feel it’s very simple to change into a T-shaped particular person in DevRel. So, since you’re at all times at these neighborhood occasions, you’re at all times experimenting with new issues to construct content material. It’s very simple to get very shallow expertise of plenty of issues and to not essentially have the depth to go assist an implementation at scale in an organization. So, I feel that’s the bit that numerous DevRel people battle with. I feel the easiest way of coping with that for lots of oldsters is — properly, I say “cope with that.” I imply, a part of it you may settle for that you just’re simply not, that’s not your function; that there’s some extent the place you hand that relationship off to an architect or gross sales engineer throughout the group.

Joe Nash 00:28:43 However there are different methods the place people interact in open supply, or they’ve their pet initiatives. For instance, in my present function, my function is primarily educating new college students about Twillio. And meaning numerous doing the fundamentals. I train them what relaxation APIs are and or all this type of stuff. And I actually study lots myself there, however I don’t get to go tremendous in-depth. So I even have my pet product inside our — properly, not ‘product,’ my pet undertaking — which began as a demo however is now beginning to get fairly massive, and I hold including to it and it’s rising in technical complexity, which I just do to be sure that I do nonetheless understand how to do that stuff, proper? And I feel that’s the best way numerous issues go. You’ll typically discover really, like Brian Douglas at GitHub is an effective instance of this, the place he’s a developer advocate, however he’s constructed an unbelievable aspect undertaking round serving to individuals get into open supply. However that itself is an app that he’s constructing that makes use of numerous the applied sciences he’s advocating, and has numerous customers. And so, he’s attending to it’s serving his advocacy wants whereas additionally giving him an avenue to construct abilities.

Felienne 00:29:49 Yeah. So, the tip possibly there could be to have some type of pet undertaking, massive or small, the place you may nonetheless proceed to be a developer type of on the aspect, in all probability not on the primary undertaking, so you may hold your talent set up-to-date.

Joe Nash 00:30:03 Yeah, that and I’d say in case you are involved about not writing sufficient code, regulate what the overlap between the DevRel staff and product is. You wish to search for groups which are concerned in SDK growth. And finally, in case you are tremendous involved about not writing sufficient code, it’s doable which have developer advocate is just not a task you’ll get pleasure from.

Felienne 00:30:24 Yeah. So, what you’re saying is that programming is simply a small a part of the job, and it could be laborious to even hold sufficient talent to correctly do your job, not to mention hold your programming abilities alive for if you wish to return, if that’s the place you’re coming from to programming.

Joe Nash 00:30:39 I feel I’d say it’s an excellent job for individuals who get pleasure from coding however who wouldn’t get pleasure from coding nine-to-five full time.

Felienne 00:30:49 Yeah, that is smart. Let’s transfer on to the following matter that we wish to discuss. We talked about programming, we talked in regards to the abilities that you’ve as a developer advocate, however what about content material growth? You talked about that early within the episode, I’d write blogs and movies and talks. How a lot of the job is that this content material creation? And likewise there, how have you learnt you’re heading in the right direction? Is there various weblog posts it’s a must to write or various followers it’s a must to purchase on Twitter? How does that a part of the job appear to be?

Joe Nash 00:31:22 Certain. And once more, sorry to maintain saying it relies upon, however it does rely.

Felienne 00:31:25 We perceive, we are able to hear some examples of what it’d appear to be?

Joe Nash 00:31:29 So for a developer advocate it’s going to rely, it’s going to be a pretty big a part of the function. So, that outreach-driven aspect of develop relations content material as stated is a really efficient tactic to succeed in builders. Builders must consistently be trying stuff up. They should consistently be refreshing their abilities. So, creating content material and getting content material within the distinguished locations, being seen on Slack Overflow, on Hacker Information, on dev.to, these sort of issues, is a good tactic. Weblog posts additionally function actually helpful entry level to a extra technical documentation. So, it’s typically lots simpler to seek out blogs simply attributable to nature of search engine optimization than it’s to seek out exact technical documentation. And so, having people engaged on weblog posts can actually assist builders within the lifecycle of utilizing your merchandise.

Joe Nash 00:32:27 So it does are likely to take up rather a lot. The place you will note it having a extra distinguished function will certainly be in platform corporations the place they’re making an attempt to serve extensive swathes of the developer ecosystems. Once more, Twillio’s an attention-grabbing instance the place any firm can use Twillio, your tech stack doesn’t actually matter. We’re a REST API, we have now wrappers for all types of languages. And so you find yourself with plenty of construct X with Y, proper? use Twillio for those who’re a Ruby on Rails app, and learn how to use this product with this language. And so these sort of corporations the place you have got, you may have that X with Y formulation, you’ll have numerous, in all probability numerous weblog content material being made.

Joe Nash 00:33:17 By way of success and measuring that success, once more there’s the usual measures: hey, is that this weblog publish being considered? Is that this weblog publish showing in locations? Is it being profitable in ranked feeds? Nevertheless it’s laborious to translate vainness metrics into precise enterprise worth until you have got an attribution mechanism. So, do you have got a manner of — like, do you have got a free trial or a credit-based system the place you may say, hey, we all know that some builders signed as much as us for the primary time due to this weblog publish. Or can we see, hey, this weblog publish is speaking a few specific demo utility, and we are able to see {that a} bunch of builders are utilizing that demo utility, proper? So, you actually need to really have a mechanism of in search of precise developer exercise, precise interact builders, builders really constructing with the product builders, hitting your API endpoint, builders integrating the product. And that must be fairly a holistic a part of the content material. You may’t simply, if you wish to see precise product utilization, it’s laborious to only sort of write a high-level weblog after which throw in on the finish and right here’s a demo, you could possibly verify tat out for those who wished to. The demo must be helpful, must be one thing that they’d really use experimenting with the product, must be on the important path.

Felienne 00:34:37 After which the following query could be, how have you learnt these items? How have you learnt what the important path is? Do you have got some type of group of person builders round you that provide you with suggestions? I do know typically these weblog posts have this little thumbs up, thumb down, was this content material useful to you? How do you even know for those who’re on the proper path? I imply, fairly often I search for tutorials and I’m like none of that is what would assist me to get began. However that is actually laborious to know since you’re such an skilled of your personal merchandise, writing stuff for individuals that aren’t in any respect educated in something. How do you assume that?

Joe Nash 00:35:14 Sure, I feel this is without doubt one of the, I suppose one of many the reason why develop relations exists as its sort of personal factor slightly than simply being a technical author in advertising and marketing, proper? It’s that embedding of an individual who’s accountable for that content material within the developer neighborhood at massive. You have got the developer neighborhood who’s conscious of you, who’s conscious of your work, that you could go and say, hey, is this handy? Is that this what you want? That I feel is the simplest and finest manner to do this. I do assume that developer relations people don’t essentially deal with the academic outcomes as a lot — or don’t take into account the academic outcomes as essential to the success of the function as they need to do. That’s my private’s, my private soapbox, which I am going to DevRelCon with regularly and is why I work on issues on papers we love.

Joe Nash 00:36:11 So I do assume that that may typically be uncared for, however usually, being in dialog with the developer neighborhood is a core perform of the function. And so, for those who, if a developer relations particular person is writing content material with out suggestions from the neighborhood, some a part of the cycle is just not working as supposed there. So, I positively assume that’s, whether or not you name it a spotlight group or whether or not it’s only a group of oldsters you belief on Twitter who occur to go to the identical conferences as you, that group, that enter does must exist for the function to perform.

Felienne 00:36:49 And possibly that very a lot relies upon as you’re saying, you’ve stated a bunch of occasions, proper? It relies upon. It will depend on the kind of firm or merchandise, whether or not certainly that could be a focus group or individuals that you just hang around with naturally or that you just share in Discord with, proper?

Joe Nash 00:37:02 Yeah. So, the extra enterprise-focused issues, for instance, could have buyer advisory boards and they’ll have extra deliberately structured focus group-like setups. Once more, open supply has that as properly. Open supply you’ll typically have like a council, for lack of a greater phrase, bigger customers of the open-source undertaking to, when an organization has an open supply undertaking that they use, that they preserve, they’ll typically have — not saying for those who’re an open supply maintainer, you’re not operating your personal council, the individuals use your product — however for those who’re an organization utilizing open supply, you’ll typically have an open-source guiding steering physique, who may additionally enter as properly.

Felienne 00:37:44 Let’s transfer on to the general public talking a part of the job, proper? So that could be a completely different type of content material creation, but additionally its personal factor. How do you go about discovering conferences? Do you, like common individuals, do you undergo a name for papers or classes, or is there a unique course of for those who’re a developer advocate that you just use to get your self or your merchandise into conferences?

Joe Nash 00:38:09 So, how do you discover conferences is unquestionably one thing that’s modified over time. Like, the halcyon days of Lanyard, which have been truthfully in all probability the very best time for locating conferences. There are all types of aggregators. Typically and once more, each developer relations particular person has their sort of pet conferences that they know from their neighborhood. Typically individuals get into DevRel by being seen locally and that might be by these occasions. After which there is part of the cycle the place it’s, okay it’s time to go do my CFPs for the yr. I’m going to go discover conferences which are addressing these themes, these matters, and also you undergo them. The precise technique for submitting talks. plenty of individuals go about it in numerous methods. So, for instance, to place it bluntly, submitting to CFPs is a numbers recreation, proper?

Joe Nash 00:38:52 CFP, so requires papers, the best way that conferences take discuss submissions and the best way that they settle for them, these processes may be pushed in another way in plenty of other ways. However there’s essentially going to be somebody reviewing them. You’re going to be up towards different actually proficient audio system and there’s a lot content material on the market and so many conferences on the market. So typically, to just remember to can keep busy all year long, you’re going to be submitting to numerous them, and also you’re going to be in all probability getting accepted to lots fewer than you undergo. So, individuals can strategy that in numerous methods. I feel this is without doubt one of the earliest factors of stress or frustration or burnout that developer relations individuals hit the place they have a look at a convention they usually craft of a bespoke discuss for that convention, they usually do these 30 occasions after which 10% get accepted.

Joe Nash 00:39:43 And that’s very unhappy and aggravating, and also you’ve put numerous work in. So, I feel what tends to occur is individuals will sort of work on their talks for the yr to 3 talks for the yr. They’ll discover applicable boards for these talks, they usually’ll submit them, they usually’ll see what occurs. The way you submit as a developer advocate, and what function the product has in that’s, once more, at all times a pressure level. We’re embedded in our communities, we’re a part of these communities, we wish our content material we do to be worthwhile. We don’t simply wish to go do advertisements all over the place, however payments must be paid. So, understanding how one can symbolize your organization in a manner that’s helpful for builders is at all times difficult. A lot of conferences could have sponsored tracks and infrequently that’s simply the very best factor to do, proper?

Joe Nash 00:40:21 If you should talk firm message, you should do the product demo, and there’s a manner the place you may clearly say ‘this can be a product demo.’ Nobody is being tricked into attending this. Everybody is aware of what they’re getting once they come right here. In the event that they’re , they will come right here, however they know we’ve paid for this slot. That is going to be in regards to the firm, that’s nice. For those who’re a developer advocate who works on a product that has attention-grabbing parallel issues to speak about. So, you get to speak about your merchandise, your organization’s expertise, and the way they construct the issues they do, and it’s not similar to, use our product, that’s additionally actually nice. Nicely typically you could possibly simply be actually fortunate, and you’re employed on a product that’s simply attention-grabbing to builders no matter whether or not it’s a demo, proper?

Joe Nash 00:40:56 Like Kubernetes and React are good examples the place you may simply go discuss learn how to do one thing in Kubernetes, and for those who occur to work for somebody who sells Kubernetes, okay that’s advantageous, you are able to do that discuss, proper? I feel the important thing to submitting talks is ensure you’re really contributing worth. Be certain it’s a scalable course of as a result of you should be doing it lots, and just remember to should not going to be shocking the attendees on the convention that they’re anticipating to see what they’re going to see, and that they’re not going to assume there’s been a rug pull with the content material they’ve seen and what you’ve really introduced.

Felienne 00:41:28 Yeah, not I can really feel so them they unintentionally run into an advert, oh proper, this isn’t I’m not studying simply I’m being bought one thing.

Joe Nash 00:41:36 Yeah completely. And that’s a very laborious line to stroll.

Felienne 00:41:39 Yeah, after all.

Joe Nash 00:41:40 And a few people do it higher than others.

Felienne 00:41:41 And I feel that is even true for builders speaking about merchandise in the event that they’re not developer relations individuals, proper? Generally individuals get actually enthusiastic about, look this cool factor I constructed, then it additionally may sound like an advert though they’re not actually promoting one thing. It’s like, oh I constructed this platform and properly …

Joe Nash 00:41:57 If it’s a expertise they’re utilizing that they actually like, it may be very easy to unintentionally derail your convention discuss into simply sort of promoting a expertise that, like, whether or not it’s applicable for another person it’s going to rely. And it’s not likely the helpful a part of the discuss, however yeah.

Felienne 00:42:12 Yeah. So, after which that course of does to me sound lots like different individuals which are submitting convention talks, proper? You must develop it somewhat bit. Sure, it’ll be a bit too unhappy if it’s rejected. So, it doesn’t sound too completely different from — we have now had different episodes that we are going to hyperlink to about public talking and learn how to get into public talking extra usually. And that appears to speak a few fairly related course of. Thus far, we’ve very a lot talked in regards to the outdoors, the outgoing a part of being a developer relationships particular person, however what in regards to the inward half, proper? Inside the firm, I think about you have got interactions with everybody, with builders within the firm, with advertising and marketing, with gross sales, with HR possibly even for those who’re additionally doing this hiring-facing a part of the job. What does that search for you, and what does that appear to be usually, the kind of collaborations you have got inside your personal firm?

Joe Nash 00:43:04 Certain. So yeah, in a super scenario, there’ll be plenty of these overlaps. So, these overlaps have a tendency to come back into play when you have got a enterprise perform within the firm that must be in contact with builders in a roundabout way. It’s actually helpful to have a developer relations particular person within the room as a result of that developer relations particular person goes to be a consultant of the builders. They’re in these communities, they know what they need, they understand how they really feel in regards to the firm, and they’re vibe-check and steering physique. In order that performs out in numerous methods in numerous corporations, and in some corporations just some departments overlap, some gained’t. The largest manner you’ll see this play out for those who’re making an attempt to get into DevRel is while you see what’s the reporting construction for developer relations?

Joe Nash 00:43:43 Is it a standalone division? Very hardly ever. It’s going to typically report into advertising and marketing or into engineering, and the place it sits within the firm can inform you a large number about these overlaps. The most typical overlaps are positively advertising and marketing. Advertising and marketing might be, Advertising and marketing and Engineering are essentially the most important ones. Advertising and marketing might be as a result of, as we’ve spoken about lots with among the most distinguished roles in developer relations, there’s numerous outward-facing outreach and consciousness constructing and you’ve got a task within the funnel. Engineering will come round from the opposite finish of the suggestions loop. So, developer relations could have an overlap with engineering as a result of they’re simply getting numerous suggestions straight from builders. They’re speaking to the individuals utilizing the product. And so, it’s essential to have a manner that that makes it into engineering.

Joe Nash 00:44:26 Gross sales will typically be concerned for a really related motive. I’ve had roles, notably at GitHub, the place I obtained concerned within the gross sales cycle simply because I occurred to be a technical public-facing particular person within the area, proper? So, I very often ended up speaking to, oh properly I used to be notably centered on academic use circumstances, and I used to be centered on college students, however as a result of I knew the academic use case, I’d get introduced in to talk to a college that wished to purchase GitHub enterprise, proper? And that sort of factor. And in order that’s additionally pretty frequent. The opposite, I feel as we’ve spoken somewhat bit about expertise as properly, that can typically come into play simply because once more, develop errelations persons are locally in order that they know that persons are in search of jobs; they’re going to locations the place persons are in search of jobs.

Joe Nash 00:45:07 Folks search for jobs at these occasions. And so, when you’ve got jobs, if your organization’s hiring jobs and also you get pleasure from the place you’re employed, it’s at all times very good to have the ability to say, hey, you’ve simply watched me do a chat. For those who favored this discuss, come work with us. Proper? It’s very simple to do this. I feel the place it may possibly get most difficult is with possession and attribution although, since you overlap with so many departments, you find yourself having a stake in plenty of issues, however although it may be tough to combine that overlap into your personal measures for achievement or how you’re evaluated, proper? So, if I’m evaluated on variety of builders that signal as much as the platform, my relationship with expertise in all probability isn’t serving to that, proper? So, something I do for expertise isn’t essentially serving to, or if I spend numerous time supporting a person buyer that’s not essentially contributing to the numbers. So, I feel that is the place the overlap, the place there may be some pressure for DevRel in constructing relationships. A lot of departments is, they typically are a service supplier internally, they supply one thing plenty of departments need, however it’s laborious to quantify that worth with all these completely different — you may get thanked, you may get acknowledged for these departments, however simply plenty of little tidbits right here and there doesn’t essentially make a cohesive inner narrative.

Felienne 00:46:22 Yeah. So everybody may such as you as an worker since you’re serving to everybody, proper? However which may not be an efficient one.

Joe Nash 00:46:28 Impact of that.

Felienne 00:46:29 Yeah,

Joe Nash 00:46:30 Yeah, precisely.

Felienne 00:46:31 So we talked about, gross sales and advertising and marketing, however you additionally briefly talked about engineering. And I wish to go somewhat bit deeper there as a result of in a way possibly you’re additionally typically the primary buyer of some merchandise that your organization is constructing, proper? In the event that they construct an API, possibly you’re the first one to strive the API within the technique of working towards it, making a weblog publish about utilizing the API. That’s, possibly you’re there as the primary buyer, possibly additionally fixing bugs. What sometimes is the connection that every one of you have got inside engineering in corporations or inside programming or builders?

Joe Nash 00:47:07 So, what you simply described could be the perfect scenario. I’ll inform you that doesn’t typically play out and that’s largely simply because the stress to ship. So, we spoke about more and more developer-facing corporations wish to do the large splashy launch on the annual convention, and in these circumstances, issues are at all times towards the deadline. The convention date is the goal. And so, there’s typically not as lengthy an inner interval to play with issues as you’d hope, or as a developer relations particular person wants. However in a super world, that’s the scenario. If developer relations will get concerned within the content material for a product launch, and that is really, I’d really say that is in all probability extra an overlap with product advertising and marketing than is with engineering. As a result of that can often be how that relationship occurs, proper?

Joe Nash 00:47:49 So for the weblog publish to finish up being written by developer relations, the pre-launch weblog publish or the pre-launch demos to be written by developer relations, they’re in all probability being concerned in a product advertising and marketing effort, proper? However yeah, having that avenue into product managers and with the ability to say, hey, I performed with the pre-release model, right here’s the friction I had. It’s very worthwhile. I feel, these days particularly, and I do assume corporations GitHub have sort of made this commonplace. These days, you’ll typically have protracted public alphas that cope with that half, the inner pre-release cycle of it. So typically website will go stay within the public alpha and developer expertise points will get ironed out then and develop relations individuals might be essential in that cycle. As a result of once more, they’re an avenue for suggestions. They’ll in all probability be selling the alpha; they’ll be speaking with people in the course of the alpha. However when it comes to being the primary buyer, I feel that’s comparatively unusual for the explanations I discussed.

Felienne 00:48:43 Ah, that could be a pity as a result of yeah, as you have been saying, that may be a pleasant trajectory the place first you check it type of internally and possibly among the fixes you may even make your self, whereas common prospects outdoors of the corporate after all it will be more durable for them to iron out little points in an alpha.

Joe Nash 00:48:58 Yeah. It typically comes — and once more, somebody will hear this and say that they’re opposite to the purpose, and that they’re the primary buyer — however I feel the engineering collaborations have a tendency to come back after first publicity to the general public. It’ll be a developer has gotten maintain of the API and has suggestions and that can get again in to engineering through a developer advocate. That may typically be the connection with engineering. It’ll be the opposite finish of the suggestions cycle, and it’ll be the individuals who the primary prospects come to slightly than be within the first prospects themselves.

Felienne 00:49:29 Yeah, that makes complete sense. Suppose individuals which are listening are desirous about exploring such a profession. What are among the sources, I suppose if you wish to study a brand new programming language, we type of all know what are the paths to that. One factor I feel you already talked about was one thing known as DevRelCon, like a convention particularly? Is {that a} good place to get began or do you have got books, blogs, movies to discover this path?

Joe Nash 00:49:55 So DevRelCon is a developer operations convention organized by a consultancy known as Hoopy. It’s Matthew Ravel. It’s fantastic. It’s a convention for DevRel practitioners. I’d not essentially advocate shelling out and attending it in case you are not but in DevRel, however for those who’re desirous about DevRel. However what I’d advocate doing goes over to the YouTube channel, going to developerrelations.com and testing the large backlog of movies. All of the talks have been recorded. You could find all of them, there have been the convention has been operating a very long time now and it’s for DevRel practitioners, so there’s numerous stuff in-depth there that’s in all probability not tremendous helpful for those who’re simply beginning out. However there have been additions of the convention centered on early-in-career developer relations people and moving into trade. So that you’ll positively discover these talks.

Joe Nash 00:50:37 I feel one other actually nice useful resource is Mary Thengvall’s publication. Mary Thengvall has an exquisite publication that additionally typically consists of job posts. Finally, I feel the very best factor you are able to do although is to go and select a developer product you want, select an API you want, select a instrument you want, and hit the touchdown web page and faux you’ve by no means seen it earlier than. And put your self within the mindset of a developer who’s assessing this instrument to see if they need to use it at work, and undergo that journey and see what you assume, see how fast it takes you to make your first API request, see what friction you hit, see what docs you assume aren’t fairly clear sufficient. And having accomplished that course of, distill these ideas, write one thing down after which mirror and say, hey, did I get pleasure from doing that? I could be a developer relations particular person. That may be what I’d advocate.

Felienne 00:51:25 That’s a good way to get began. And naturally, among the abilities that we talked about additionally, as I already stated, have been coated in different episodes. So technical writing or turning into a public speaker, for those who would wish to work on a few of these subskills, a few of our older episodes may additionally assist and different sources to work particularly on these completely different abilities.

Joe Nash 00:51:44 One factor I’d warning on that somewhat — properly, sorry, I’d say warning — it’s, I feel moving into developer relations typically can fall into the identical lure as moving into software program engineering. A lot of individuals say, oh go contribute to a great deal of open supply. That’s a great way to get into software program engineering, proper? And I feel the identical can sort of occur to DevRel the place it’s very simple to say ‘go give a load of talks,’ however they take numerous time and work, and never everybody can afford to do this as a part of their profession change. There are positively, there might be job listings on the market that say, hey, we wish you to have this many Twitter followers and have accomplished this many talks. However there are job roles on the market for early-in-career DevRel individuals the place they’ll simply have a look at the expertise you have got as a software program engineer and gained’t have required you to do the job of a DevRel earlier than you’re a DevRel, proper? So, for those who see job postings that require you to do a load of labor you don’t have time to do within the profession change, don’t be discouraged. Jobs do exist for early, early-career DevRel jobs do exist.

Felienne 00:52:42 Ah, nice. Nicely, this can be a excellent recommendation. I feel that’s a lot of the issues I wished to speak about. Do you assume there’s something we missed? Any angle about this a part of the job that you just nonetheless wish to discuss?

Joe Nash 00:52:53 I don’t assume so. I feel your questions are very far. Thanks.

Felienne 00:52:56 Yeah. Implausible. Thanks a lot. So, then what about you? Suppose the viewers needs to comply with you? What are the very best locations to remain updated with the work that you’re doing?

Joe Nash 00:53:05 Certain. So, I’m @jna_sh on Twitter, and also you’ll in all probability discover me for those who simply search Joe Nash.

Felienne 00:53:11 We’ll add it to the present notes as properly.

Joe Nash 00:53:13 Excellent. If you’re desirous about developer schooling, that’s the place I spend numerous my time these days. I run a meetup known as Papers We Love Training, which is a paper studying group for pc science schooling papers, and I work on an academic recreation known as TwillioQuest, so I like to recommend checking these out as properly.

Felienne 00:53:29 Yeah, so we’ll positively add all these hyperlinks to the present notes so individuals can verify them out. Thanks for being on the present at present.

Joe Nash 00:53:35 Thanks a lot for having me.

[End of Audio]

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